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As Tim requested I am posting my question and his (rather humorous) response in the forum so others may benefit from it as well...

Hey there.
I am doing my regular review of past lessons and have come across something that is perplexing me.

In 맛없어, the ᄉ is pronounced as (t) rather than (s) due to the absent object marking particle…this leads me to wonder then about 셋 and 넷. Are these ᄉ’s also pronounced at (t) due to a missing particle? And if not then 왜?

Thanks.
Cindy


timandyou says:
Thursday at 12:06 pm
Hello Cindy,
This is Tim from KC101.com.
Can you visit our Forum (Koreanclass101.com) and leave the question there?
Normally 맛없어 is pronounced as [ma-deop-sseo] 마덥써.
Why!??? Why don’t you simply think that writing and speaking is different!?
Yes, of course… there are rules for pronunciation but, please let it go…

What if I ask you about these questions…?
1. between “him” & “hi”, why is “i” sounded different?
2. between “climb” & “cinema” & “can”, why is “c” sounded different?
3. in “climb”, why is “b” silent?
and many many more…

Please let it go… why?
because I am pretty sure that you will be getting annoyed by those rules sooner or later… The best way to learn vocab (in my opinion) is simply to write the word while saying it.
Thanks for the comment,
Please post your comment (question) on the Forum.
There will be other listeners who have the same question…
(why don’t we share?)
cheers,
Tim

(BTW if you really want to know the answers to those questions Tim asked my sister (a 3rd Grade teacher) said she would be HAPPY to tell you!)


I however will be letting this go and pressing on through my Newbie series so I can get to the upper level stuff where I shall be happily plagued by the rules of Korean grammar!

Cheers all!

Hello Cindy,
Thanks for posting your question here in the Forum...

anyway...
Now I've become being interested in the answers for my questions...

1. between “him” & “hi”, why is “i” sounded different?
2. between “climb” & “cinema” & “can”, why is “c” sounded different?
3. in “climb”, why is “b” silent?

To be honestly say, I (Even though I have used and spoken English for 10 years), haven't figured them out "why!?"...

I thought... they are just what they are...
Yes, please I want to know about those rules... (if you (you sister) give me (other listeners) clear and simply answers, that would be very helpful!).
I am sure that there are many Korean who speak English but NEVER know about those rules... (just like me...)

I am so excited!!! After your explanation, I would come to know why
"hi" is pronounced as [ai].
"him" is pronounced as [i].
"hide" is pronounced as [ai].
"hid" - the past tense of "hide" - is pronounced as [i].
"infinite" are pronounced as [i] and [ə].
and many more...

Please share your insight with us...
cheers,
Tim

ps. Later, I will do my best to answer your question though... thanks,

Tim,
You asked:
Now I've become being interested in the answers for my questions...

1. between “him” & “hi”, why is “i” sounded different?
2. between “climb” & “cinema” & “can”, why is “c” sounded different?
3. in “climb”, why is “b” silent?

To be honestly say, I (Even though I have used and spoken English for 10 years), haven't figured them out "why!?"...

I thought... they are just what they are...
Yes, please I want to know about those rules... (if you (you sister) give me (other listeners) clear and simply answers, that would be very helpful!).
I am sure that there are many Korean who speak English but NEVER know about those rules... (just like me...)

I am so excited!!! After your explanation, I would come to know why
"hi" is pronounced as [ai].
"him" is pronounced as [i].
"hide" is pronounced as [ai].
"hid" - the past tense of "hide" - is pronounced as [i].
"infinite" are pronounced as [i] and [ə].
and many more...

Answers to your questions:

1.) vowel sounds: why does the same vowel sometimes sound different?

• First, let's define long and short vowel sounds.
• The sound of 'i' in hi, is the long /i/ sound. As a teacher, I tell my kids that "long vowels say their name". So, long "i" is what you described as [ai], which is the NAME of the letter. When "a" makes the sound like in day, it sounds like the name of the letter "a", so we know it is a long 'a' sound. The word rope haslong 'o'.
• short vowel sounds are the 'other' sound each vowel makes: 'a' in rat, 'e' in bed, 'i' in him, 'o' in hot, 'u' in but
• One of the first spelling rules English children learn is the "Silent e" rule: An 'e' at the end of a word is usually silent, BUT it makes the last vowel before it have the long sound: example is rate, where the 'e' is silent, but the 'a' has the long sound because of the silent 'e'. If there was not an 'e'... then the sound would be short... and we would have a rat. So, in your email, you asked about hide and why it is long[ai]. Now you know! It's because of that silent 'e' at the end of the word!
• There are many times that the Silent 'e' changes everything- the vowel sound and the meaning: fin/fine, can/cane, fat/fate, rag/rage, etc etc.

BUT, you specifically asked about him and hi, and why is the 'i' short in him and long in hi?
Quick answer: in the same syllable, there is a consonant after the vowel, and that consonant makes the vowel short
Real answer: In English, there are open syllables and closed syllables. Here are the simple rules:

• An open syllable is a syllable with only one vowel, and the vowel is at the end of the syllable. "Hi" is an open syllable. The vowel in an open syllable usually makes the long sound. So, in the word cable, there are 2 syllables (ca-ble) and the first syllable is open: it ends in a vowel. That is a clue that the vowel will have the long vowel sound: CAY-bull, instead of CAW-bull. www.phonicsontheweb.com says: An open syllable has one and only one vowel, and that vowel occurs at the end of the syllable. Examples includeno, she, I, a, and spry. Also, ti-ger, ma-ple, com-pu-ter (long 'i', long 'a', long 'u')
• A closed syllable is a syllable with only one vowel, but the vowel does NOT occur at the end of the syllable; in other words, the syllable ends with a consonant. So, him is a one-syllable word, and that syllable ends with a consonant, therefore the vowel will have (most likely) the short vowel sound. Another example could be the first syllable of com-pu-ter. The 'o' is not a long 'o' because it is in aclosed syllable. Other examples: ask, hot, truck, hey, and, in, on
Remember, of course, that there are always plenty of exceptions- this IS English, after all.

2.) Why so many 'c' sounds? climb, cinema, can

• 'c' can sound like /k/ or like /s/. When it makes the /k/ sound, it is called a hard c and when it makes the /s/ sound, it is called the soft c.
• When reading a word, you can tell if the c will be hard or soft by looking at the vowel that comes right after it: soft c (makes /s/ sournd) is followed by an e, i, or y. Examples: cinema, cymbal, ceremony
• hard c (makes /k/ sound) is followed by an a, o, or u. Examples: can, cord, cut
• Then you have c's that are part of a consonant blend. This is when 2 or more consonants combine to form a new sound. Examples: /cl/ as in climb and /cr/ as in crash and /ch/ as in church


3) Why is the 'b' in climb silent?

• Unfortunately, the answer is: just because.
• There are many times a certain group of letters has a silent letter 'hidden' within... and when I'm teaching that to my third graders, the teacher's manual actually says "tell children there is no reason for this, they will just have to memorize these letter combinations and learn to recognize them".

• So, here are the most common 'silent killers' of English phonics:
o MB at the end of a word, silent 'b' as in lamb, jamb, climb, dumb, bomb
o LK at the end of a word, silent 'l' as in talk, chalk
o LM silent 'l' as in salmon
o LF silent 'l' as in calf, half
o OULD silent 'l' as in should, could, would (would sounds exactly like wood)
o STLE has a silent 't' as in whistle, castle
o WH is generally considered to have a silent 'h', although the way in which the lips form the beginning sound is supposed to be different; there is such a small difference in sound, that it's best just to consider the 'h' as silent.
o GN has a silent g, as in sign, champaign, gnat
o GHT has silent 'g' AND 'h' as in caught, flight, knight, sight (sounds just like site)
o KN has silent 'k' as in know, knee, knight (sounds just like night)
o WR has silent 'w' as in wrench, wrong, write
o GUE or GUI has silent 'u' as in guest, guide, league
o MN has silent 'n' when at the end of a word, as in hymn, autumn

So, in English, there are many times the words sound exactly the same, but have different meanings:write/right/rite, know/no, hymn/him, there/their/they're, oar/ore/or.... The list of homophones goes on and on and on...

Yeah, I know, English is crazy! I just spent 3 years teaching English in Peru, and the longer I taught (look- a silent GH!) the more I thought (another GH!) that anyone who can actually LEARN ENGLISH should get a prize.

Let me know if you have any other questions! I love grammar!

Good luck! ~Emily

안녕하세요. ^^
Tim and Cindy...

오랜만에 들어왔다가 보고 남겨봅니다.
영어를 너무 안써서 설명을 못하겠어요.
Tim이 나중에 영어로 번역을 좀... ^^;;

maddiefossett4431 wrote:In 맛없어, the ᄉ is pronounced as (t) rather than (s) due to the absent object marking particle…this leads me to wonder then about 셋 and 넷. Are these ᄉ’s also pronounced at (t) due to a missing particle? And if not then 왜?

맛, 셋, 넷 등과 같이 ㅅ이 받침으로 사용될때는 대표음 법칙(제가 학교다닐때는 절음법칙이라고 배웠는데 요즘 문법에서는 뭐라고 하는지 모르겠네요)에 의해 ㄷ 소리로 발음이 됩니다. 한국어의 받침소리는 ㄱ,ㄴ,ㄷ,ㄹ,ㅁ,ㅂ,ㅇ의 7개 밖에 없고 이외의 받침들은 이 7가지 소리로 대체가 되죠.
하지만 뒤에 모음으로 시작되는 조사가 붙으면 원래의 소리가 되살아납니다.
예를 들어 '맛을'이 '마슬'로 소리나게 되지요.
조사는 단어가 아니라 해단 단어의 역할을 규정하는 말이기 때문에 한 단어로 보는 것이죠.

하지만 '맛없어'는 왜 '마덥써'로 발음이 되는가가 질문 중 하나인 것 같습니다.
'맛'과 '없어'는 하나의 단어가 아니라 각각 두 단어가 함께 문장을 이루고 있을 뿐입니다.
그래서 '맛'이 '맏'으로 발음되고 난 후에 ㄷ소리가 뒤로 연음되어 '마덥써'로 소리나는 것입니다.

그러면 '맛있어'는 왜 '마시써'로 소리가 날까요?
그것은 '맛이 있어'를 빨리 발음한 것과 같기 때문에 그렇게도 쓰여지는 겁니다.
원래 '맛있어'의 발음은 '마디써'가 맞죠.
하지만
'맛이 있어' -> '마시이써' -> '마시써'
이 경우도 틀렸다고 보기 어렵기 때문에 같이 쓰다보니 사람들이 많이 쓰는 이 경우로 굳어진 것입니다.

질문하신 '셋', '넷'의 경우도..
혼자 있을때는 '섿', '넫'으로 발음이 되고,

모음으로 시작되는 조사가 붙으면
'셋을' - '세슬'
'넷이' - '네시'

모음으로 시작되는 다른 단어가 올 경우
'셋있어' - '세디써'
'넷없어' - '네덥써'

등으로 발음이 됩니다.


도움되셨길 바라며...
Tim에게 바톤을... ㅋㅋㅋ