My newbie grammar questions thread! \o/

[Silja]

Ok, I couldn't find this information easily anywhere from the net, so I'm putting up my own "so many stupid questions, so many obvious answers" thread.

First of all I want to tell you that I just started to study Korean about a week ago, so I really am a new student. In my opinion the best way to approach a new language is to study it like the native children do, start from the most basic phrases and expressions and the locigally advance to more complicated structures. So I don't want to know how to say things like "I love you", "Where's the nearest subway station?", or "I'll take a beer" before I understand the grammar behind these sentences (and if i get in real trouble, I can always consult a tourist phrase book or something... ). I will probably compare Korean grammar a lot to Japanese grammar in my questions, because I've been studying Japanese about 4 years now and I find these two languages quite similar to each other. (And if someone's intrested: my native language is Finnish as you can see from all the mistakes I've made writing in English)

Then to the main point. My first question is:

1. What is the plain copula in Korean (compare to Japanese だ)? Is it 이다? Can you say for example "구영이 이다" --> "is cat" or do you need to conjucate the copula? And what is the negative plain copula (Japanese ない)? How about the past tenses of both?

Second question is related to the first:
2. Can you use plain verbs without any conjucations? I mean something like "밥을 먹다".

And the last one:
3. How many speech/politeness levels there are in Korean? (in Japanese four: casual, polite, humble, honorific) I'll really appreciate if you can give examples of these levels with the copula and some basic verb like 가다.

I think that's all for now!

I'll be really happy if you can help me, because really I couldn't find this information anywhere else...

[Keith]

Silja,

If you know Japanese, Korean will be much easier. The most similar things are sentence structure and syntax.

That being said, they're not totally the same, it's impossible to take everything and translate directly. So for your questions.

1. The plain, casual copula is either 야 (adds to things ending in vowels) or 이야 (adds to things ending in consonants). This is an irregular conjugation of 이다.

So since cat 고양이 ends in a vowel. we add 야

고야이야. (It's a cat - casual language)

The negative copula in Korean is 아니다. And the casual version would be 아니야 (and this adds onto all words consonant or vowel).

고양이아니야. (It's not a cat - casual)

2. You can use verbs without them being conjugated, but that's actually getting into an Intermediate grammatical structure. It's actually very simple to use because it seems like it's not conjugated, but in actuality, it is conjugated. Plus the nuance is different than when it's conjugated into casual forms.

For someone just starting to learn Korean, I wouldn't recommend this. I would just continue to conjugate

And if you're curious, this is called the "Plain form." (Which is not referring to politeness levels.)

Whew! I can see this getting complicated already! I hope I didn't make it worse

[manyakumi]

First of all,
Welcome here, Silja!

1. What is the plain copula in Korean (compare to Japanese だ)? Is it 이다? Can you say for example "구영이 이다" --> "is cat" or do you need to conjucate the copula? And what is the negative plain copula (Japanese ない)? How about the past tenses of both?

Yes. You are correct.
The plain copula 다 or 이다.
A verb stem + 다
A noun + 이다

So, with your example we could say "고양이이다".
In this case, we could also say just as "고양이다".
(When the noun ends with a vowel, we sometimes use only 다 instead of 이다)

And its negative form would be "고양이가 아니다".

If the subject word ends with a vowel then ___가 아니다.
If the subject word ends with a consonant, ___이 아니다.

Or you also may drop 이/가 and say simply as "고양이 아니다".

To make a past tense, we add 었다/았다 at the end of a sentence.
The last syllable has a positive vowel (ㅏ,ㅑ,ㅗ,ㅛ) + 았다
The last syllable has a negative vowel (except above) + 었다

The past tense of 이다 would be 이었다.
이었다 can be shorten as 였다.

Positive : 고양이였다.
Negative : 고양이가 아니었다.

2. Can you use plain verbs without any conjucations? I mean something like "밥을 먹다".

We rarely say like this in the conversations.

밥을 먹는다. (Present: be eating)
밥을 먹었다. (Past: ate)

Both above are mostly used.

To make a present form,
A verb stem ends with a vowel + ㄴ다.
A verb stem ends with a consonant + 는다.

3. How many speech/politeness levels there are in Korean? (in Japanese four: casual, polite, humble, honorific) I'll really appreciate if you can give examples of these levels with the copula and some basic verb like 가다.

I think Korean has more levels but very similar to Japanese.

Ex) I'm going.

Casual : 나 간다.
Standard Polite : 저 가요.
Extremely Polite : 저 갑니다.

As you see,
The humble form of 나 is 저.

This time let me show you honorific forms.
Ex) He's going.

Casual : 그가 간다.
Standard Polite : 그 분이 가신다.
Extremely Polite : 그 분이 가십니다.

Some honorifics would be totally different with the standard form.

먹다 -> 드시다 -> 잡수시다
있다 -> 계시다



Please comment if there is something you don't understand.

[manyakumi]

Woops, it seems that I took too much time for my answer.
Keith did already!

[Silja]

Yei! Keith and manyakumi, thank you sooo much! You were quick…

Whew! I can see this getting complicated already! I hope I didn't make it worse

Not at all! All this just raised some more questions.

1. What is the difference between ”고양이 야” and “고양이다”? Keith writes that ”(this) is a cat” is ” 고양이 야” but manyakumi says that it’s also ok to say “고양이다” (ie. not to conjugate the copula). What kind of difference in nuance there is?

2. Does the negative copula 아니다 have irregular conjugation, too? How do you conjugate it to same form as 이다  야? How about the past forms 이었다 and 아니었다?

3. Are there irregular verbs in Korean? If there are, which ones?

4. How do I conjugate a regular verb to the same form as 이다 --> 야? For example verbs 가다 and 걷다.

5. Does 밥을 먹는다 mean “(I) eat rice” or “(I) am eating rice”?

Thank you for your replies in advance!

[SiEd]

1. What is the difference between ”고양이 야” and “고양이다”? Keith writes that ”(this) is a cat” is ” 고양이 야” but manyakumi says that it’s also ok to say “고양이다” (ie. not to conjugate the copula). What kind of difference in nuance there is?

2. Does the negative copula 아니다 have irregular conjugation, too? How do you conjugate it to same form as 이다  야? How about the past forms 이었다 and 아니었다?

3. Are there irregular verbs in Korean? If there are, which ones?

4. How do I conjugate a regular verb to the same form as 이다 --> 야? For example verbs 가다 and 걷다.

5. Does 밥을 먹는다 mean “(I) eat rice” or “(I) am eating rice”?

Thank you for your replies in advance!

1) From what I know and have gleaned from other sources, 고양이야 would be something you would actually say to another person, if he or she were asking 뭐야? 고양이다, on the other hand, is simply a matter-of-fact statement that either you would say to yourself, or perhaps write in a book of some sort. It seems very neutral - you display no affect when you use this form.

2) Well, 아니다 conjugates pretty much the same way as 이다, as they are both in the same irregular conjugation class.

Plain Informal form: 이야/야::아니야
Polite Informal form: 이에요/예요::아니에요
Formal declarative form: 입니다::아닙니다
Formal interrogative form: 입니까?::아닙니까?
Circumstantial form: 인데::아닌데
Causal (non-finite: you have to continue the sentence somehow) form: 이라서/라서::아니라서

For any past forms, i.e. those with the suffix -었/-았, the augmenting vowel 어 simply replaces 다 - no exception. So, you would have 이었어(요)/였어(요)::아니었어(요).

3) Yes, there are several classes of irregular verbs in Korean, all depending on which consonants and/or vowels the roots end in. I've posted about this at some length elsewhere - you might want to search for it. Bottom line is that you just have to memorize 1) what these verbs are - and there are a lot of them; and 2) what irregular conjugation class they're in, because each one is slightly different.

4) 가다 > 가(요); 걷다 *bell ring* happens to be an irregular ㄷ verb, so it's 걸어. For regular verbs like 먹다 'to eat' or 좋다 'to be good', the rule is simple: look at the vowel in the root. If the vowel is either ㅗ or ㅏ, then you replace 다 with 아; if it's any other vowel, then it's 어. Thus, 먹다 > 먹어(요), 좋다 > 좋아(요).

5) 밥(을) 먹는다 is the non-affective form for "I eat rice". For the progressive "I'm eating rice", you need this pattern: VRoot+고 있다. So, to say "I'm eating rice" to someone else, you say 밥(을) 먹고 있어(요), or if you were just telling yourself or writing about it, then it would be 밥(을) 먹고 있는다.

Hope this helps.

[manyakumi]

What a great explanation!

You know, SiEd is an expert in linguistics.
And I would like to give you some additional helps.


4. There are two of 걷다 verbs.

One is what SiEd has mentioned, to walk.
and it's a ㄷ irregular verb like he said.

걷다 -> 걸어, 걸으면

Another one which has different meaning is a regular verb.
And it means "roll up, remove, take off, collect, gather, etc..."

걷다 -> 걷어, 걷으면

ex)
바지를 걷어 올리고 물에 들어갔다.
Rolled the pants up and went into the water.

이제 답안지를 걷어라.
Collect your answer papers now.


5. Though it's more accurate to say 밥(을) 먹고 있어요 for meaning "I'm eating rice.",
we Koreans say as 밥(을) 먹어요 for same meaning as well.

먹다 is a basic form and ㄴ다/는다 is for making a present tense but,

Koreans eat rice.
한국인은 밥을 먹다. (X)
한국인은 밥을 먹는다. (O)

He eats meats. (He can eat meats)
그는 고기를 먹다. (X)
그는 고기를 먹는다. (O)

He is eating the meat (now).
그는 (지금) 고기를 먹는다. (O)
그는 (지금) 고기를 먹고 있다. (O)


They are used for making a general form and a progressive form at the same time.
You should distinguish them in their contexts.

[Silja]

Thank you so much SiEd and manyakumi!

Here's a brief summary of the things I've asked this far. Please let me know if there are any mistakes!

- To express "X is" in Korean, you use copula/verb 이다. If the noun that comes before the copula ends in consonant, then you use form 이다. If the noun ends in vowel, you use form 다. The form that ends in syllable 다 is called "plain form" or "dictionary form". It is used mainly in books or when you speaking to yourself.

E.g.
학생이다. (is student)
친구다.(Is friend)

- When you want to say "something is" to someone else, you have conjugate the copula. In it's plain informal form 이다 becomes 이야 and 다 becomes 야 (irregular conjugation). You can use the plain informal form when your talking to friends or other people with who you have intimate relationship (siblings etc.). Older people and people in socially higher position can use this form when speaking to younger people or people on socially lower position.

- Negative copula is 아니다. It is 아니야 in its plain informal form. 아니야 is used both nouns with vowel ending and nouns with consonant ending.

For any past forms, i.e. those with the suffix -었/-았, the augmenting vowel 어 simply replaces 다 - no exception. So, you would have 이었어(요)/였어(요)::아니었어(요).

So, is this correct?

Plain Informal form: 이었어---아니었어
Polite Informal form: 이었어요---아니었어요
Formal declarative form: 이었업니다---아니었업니다
Formal interrogative form: 이었업니까?---아니었업니까?
Circumstantial form: 이었안데---아니었안데
Causal (non-finite: you have to continue the sentence somehow) form: 이었아라서---아니었아라서

Oh, and thank you SiEd for the hint to see this thread. That made many things clearer!

4. There are two of 걷다 verbs.

Hmmm... If I look up some verb from a dictionary (for example Yahoo!'s), how can I know whether the verb is regular or not? Or do I just have to know it somehow...

이었다 can be shorten as 였다.

How common this is? Is it more a rule than a exeption?

Then a question about particles (postpositions, what ever you like to call them ).

Is the difference between 이/가 and 는/은 even roughly the same as the Japanese particles が/は? I mean, is 이/가 used for representing new things to listener or used in questions like "who is Jim?" or "what is happening?" (ie. when you can't identify your subject)? And then can you use 는/은 to mark the topic of the sentence, "as for", or use it in questions like "what is this?" or "where is the school?" (ie. when the subject is already known and identified)? If it's not like this, please explain a bit further. Can you use them in some sort of 는/은-이/가 pattern, where 이/가 specifies some part of 는/은? Like in sentence "코끼리는 코가 길어"?

Oh, and what does this word mean: 수학. One online dictionary says that is means "education" and other that is means "math". Which one is correct?

That's all for now...

[SiEd]

Thank you so much SiEd and manyakumi!

For any past forms, i.e. those with the suffix -었/-았, the augmenting vowel 어 simply replaces 다 - no exception. So, you would have 이었어(요)/였어(요)::아니었어(요).

So, is this correct?

Plain Informal form: 이었어---아니었어
Polite Informal form: 이었어요---아니었어요
Formal declarative form: 이었업니다---아니었업니다
Formal interrogative form: 이었업니까?---아니었업니까?
Circumstantial form: 이었안데---아니었안데
Causal (non-finite: you have to continue the sentence somehow) form: 이었아라서---아니었아라서

Oh, the augmenting vowel doesn't apply in the formal conjugations - instead, what you get is:

이었습니다/였습니다::아니었습니다.
이었습니까?/였습니까?::아니었습니까?

And the circumstantial form does not occur the augmenting vowel - it's simply Vroot-PST+는데:

이었는데/였는데::아니었는데

Also, you can't mark anything like the causal form with tense because it's a non-finite conjugation - one test to check for finiteness is to see if the form takes any tense/aspect/mood marking. And in this case, you can't use it with the causal form - the tense is marked with the main verb at the end of the sentence.

[manyakumi]

Hmmm... If I look up some verb from a dictionary (for example Yahoo!'s), how can I know whether the verb is regular or not? Or do I just have to know it somehow...

Unfortunately, yes.
I think it will be helpful to have chances to listen with the vocabularies as many as possible.

이었다 can be shorten as 였다.

How common this is? Is it more a rule than a exeption?

Basically it depends upon the word's ending, too.
If a word ends with vowel then put 였다.
If it ends with consonant then put 이었다.

Is the difference between 이/가 and 는/은 even roughly the same as the Japanese particles が/は? I mean, is 이/가 used for representing new things to listener or used in questions like "who is Jim?" or "what is happening?" (ie. when you can't identify your subject)? And then can you use 는/은 to mark the topic of the sentence, "as for", or use it in questions like "what is this?" or "where is the school?" (ie. when the subject is already known and identified)? If it's not like this, please explain a bit further. Can you use them in some sort of 는/은-이/가 pattern, where 이/가 specifies some part of 는/은? Like in sentence "코끼리는 코가 길어"?

This matter is similar to the Japanese case.
Maybe this have mentioned in other posts though,
이/가 are used for a normal subject marker or for a chosen subject among the pre-mentioned situation.
은/는 makes a word into a topic.
and sometimes 은/는 are also used for an unique condition of the subject words in order to emphasize them.


For examples,

A: 당신은 누구세요?
-> who are you?
B: 저는 존입니다.
-> I am John.

C: 존이 누구야?
-> Who is John? (among you guys)
A: 존은 여기 없습니다.
-> John is not here. (but the others are)
B: 제가 존입니다.
-> I am John. (John is me)

D: 존은/존이 누구지?
-> Who is John?
E: 존은 제 친구입니다.
-> John is my friend.

F: 누가 네 친구지?
-> Who is your friend? (among these people)
E: 존이 제 친구입니다.
-> John is my friend. (That is John)


그 사실을 네가 알고 내가 안다.
You and I both know that fact.

그 사실을 너는 몰라도 나는 안다.
You don't know that fact but I do.


Let's get into your sentence,

코끼리는 코가 길어
Elephants have long noses.

코끼리가 코는 길어
Elephant's nose is long : Long noses belong to elephants
(the word "nose" is emphasized)

코끼리 코가 길기는 하다.
This time, the word "long" is emphasized

You can even make an object word into a topic by using this marker.
There is a famous line by 송강호 from the movie 살인의 추억.

(너) 밥은 먹고 다니냐?

Well... I'm not so good at english to translate this exactly though,
It means "Can you even afford your meal?"
In this case, 밥 is an emphasized topic from an object word.
Actually the subject of that sentence would be 너(you), not 밥.
but he used a topic marker to the object 밥 so that he could make a nuance of "at least 밥", "nothing else but 밥" in the manner of sympathy.

Oh, and what does this word mean: 수학. One online dictionary says that is means "education" and other that is means "math". Which one is correct?

Both are correct but

수학(數學) which means "math" is much more commonly used than 수학(修學:studying) or 수학(受學:being educated).

[Silja]

Hello! I'm back and full of questions!

First of all I'd like to thank everyone who's been answering my questions, you have been really helpful. Thanks!

존은/존이 누구지?

What is the difference between those two?

One (?) more question about the difference between 은/는 and 이/가 particles. In Japanse, you can kind of think that there are imaginary arrows attached to が/は particles. The arrow that is attached to が points to the left and the arrow attached to は points to the right. The most important thing in sentence is in the direction where the arrow is pointing at. Like this:
　 　←
これがリンゴだ。 ("This is an apple")
　 　→
これはリンゴだ。 ("This is an apple")

Can you say the same about Korean particles 은/는 and 이/가? Like this:
　 ←
이게 사과예요. ("This is an apple")
　 →
이건 사과예요. ("This is an apple")
Does this make any sense?

Then to the next subject: Modifying nouns. I know that I can modify nouns with adjectives (or "describtive verbs" if you prefer that term) by attaching 은/ㄴ to adjective stem:
이건 큰 사과예요. ("This is a big apple")

You can do the same thing to verbs ("action verbs") as well:
학교가 시작하는 날이다. (Is school begins day --> It is the day when school begins)
(I found the example above from a text book.) Is my assumption correct? If it is then what is the formation of this grammar? It seems that if you have a verb stem that ends with a vowel then you have to attach 는 to it as in the given example. How about verb stems with a consonant? 은?

How do you modify a noun with another noun? In Japanese we have the allmighty の. Is there something similar in Korean? Wild guess: 의?

[manyakumi]

Welcome back! ^^

　 ←
이게 사과야요. ("This is an apple")
　 →
이건 사과야요. ("This is an apple")
Does this make any sense?

Cool!
It makes this matter quite simple and clear.

You can do the same thing to verbs ("action verbs") as well:
학교가 시작하는 날이다. (Is school begins day --> It is the day when school begins)
(I found the example above from a text book.) Is my assumption correct? If it is then what is the formation of this grammar? It seems that if you have a verb stem that ends with a vowel then you have to attach 는 to it as in the given example. How about verb stems with a consonant? 은?

그 날은 학교가 시작한 날이다.
That day was the school begins day.

오늘은 학교가 시작하는 날이다.
Today is school begins day.

내일은 학교가 시작할 날이다.
Tomorrow will be school begins day.


Examples of consonant-ending stem :

어제 먹은 음식은 한국 음식이었다.
The food you ate yesterday was a Korean dish.

지금 먹는 음식은 한국 음식이다.
The food you are eating is a Korean dish.

내일 먹을 음식은 한국 음식이다.
The food you will eat tomorrow is a Korean dish.
(You can also use present tense if a future fact is fixed at that time)

How do you modify a noun with another noun? In Japanese we have the allmighty の. Is there something similar in Korean? Wild guess: 의?

Same with Japanese too.
But we omit the particle 의 often in colloquial terms.

빨간색 구두 전용 가방 보관함
(a box which contains bags for red shoes only)

See? they are all nouns!

[Silja]

Thanks manyakumi!

So, the form of modifying noun is dependent of the tense of the sentence, right? How about adjectives? Is their conjucation always the same?

그 날은 학교가 시작한 날이다.
That day was the school begins day.
- - -
어제 먹은 음식은 한국 음식이었다.
The food you ate yesterday was a Korean dish.

Hmmm... Shouldn't the first one be "그 날은 학교가 시작한 날있다" or did I miss some point here?

See? they are all nouns!

Yei! That's exactly like in Finnish, you can just throw a noun after noun.

[manyakumi]

You're welcome, Silja.

Hmmm... Shouldn't the first one be "그 날은 학교가 시작한 날있다" or did I miss some point here?

This is the point that is different from English.
The tenses in a sentence are suppose to be same in English as I know,
but we Koreans just use the right tense at an important point of the sentense.

1. 그 날은 학교가 시작한 날이다.
2. 그 날은 학교가 시작한 날이었다.

Both can be used.
The school begins day was a past but to mention about that day is a present.

Generally,
We use no.2 when we tell a story about the past from our memories,
and use no.1 when someone ask me the reason why there is a red marking on a day in my calendar.

[Silja]

Thanks again manyakumi!

Ok, I'm trying to make a rule here. So is this correct:

Modifying nouns with verbs

Verbs with stem ending in vowel
Past: stem + ㄴ
Present: stem + 는
Future: stem + ㄹ

Verbs with stem ending in consonant
Past: stem + 은
Present: stem + 은
Future: stem + 은

Are there any exeptions (like verbs which stems end in ㄹ)?

I really have to ask one more question about the difference between 이/가 and 은/는... And I can't promise this is the final one, sorry! I just want to be perfectly sure to understand the difference. So (hopefully!) for the last time: what is the difference between following sentences. I tried to translate them in English as I see the difference. Please correct my mistakes!

나는 존이에요. - I'm John./Speaking about me, I am John.
나가 존이에요. - I am John./It is me and nobody else that is John.
누가 존이에요? - Who (of all these people) is John? (trying to identify John from a group of people. Maybe people around the speaker are speaking about John and the speaker doesn't know who he is.)
누군 존이에요? - Is John who? (there's no sense in this question because who is not something that a person can be.)
존이 누구예요? - Who is John? (Trying to get exact explanation about John. Maybe the speaker asked about John before but didn't get any answer, some other people have been introducted to him instead. Now he is trying to get know who John and only John is.)
존은 누구예요? - Who is John?/Speaking about John, who is he?

I'm a bit confused (or then I'm just tired... ) about difference between 누가 존이에요? and 존이 누구예요?. Okey, if you use "the arrow theory" you get English translations "Who is John?" and "Who is John?" respectively. Please give me further explanation! The more verbose the better.

And then one question about vocabulary: what is word that means 'wicked, evil, bad' in Korean? When I search for example word 'wicked' in Yahoo!'s dictionary, I get: 나쁜, 사악한, 부도덕한, 무도한, 못된 etc. Why are these words in prenominal form not in the normal dictionary form? 나쁜 is prenominal form of 나쁘다, right?