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sentence structure

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sentence structure

Postby John » February 3rd, 2009 7:26 am

I, after all this time, am still having some issues with what order words are placed in a sentence. I think I am borderline mentally handicapped.

이건 내일 아침에 먹을 빵이에요.
- This is the bread that I'll eat tomorrow morning.

I was thinking ....이건 빵이가 내일 아침에 먹있어요.

먹을-will eat....so I know I was wrong there.

:!: :x
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Re: sentence structure

Postby yhenry » February 3rd, 2009 12:20 pm

John wrote:I, after all this time, am still having some issues with what order words are placed in a sentence. I think I am borderline mentally handicapped.

이건 내일 아침에 먹을 빵이에요.
- This is the bread that I'll eat tomorrow morning.

I was thinking ....이건 빵이가 내일 아침에 먹있어요.

먹을-will eat....so I know I was wrong there.

:!: :x


You will have to learn how to turn a clause into relative clause, working as adjective modifying a noun.
Let's take a look at the adjectival clause first.

It is a clause because it is a complete sentence having subject and verb.
이건/이것은 (subject) 내일 아침에(adverb) 먹다/먹는다 (verb)

먹을===> 을 is attached to 먹 (verb) make the verb into adjective to modify the following noun, just like English relative clause placed after the noun it modifies; the bread which we are to eat tomorrow morning = 이건 내일 아침에 먹을 빵

이에요 = is
이건 내일 아침에 먹*을 빵 이에요 this is the bread we are to eat tomorrow morning.
Here, 을 is not object marker but adjective mark (if there is such a term) because it is attached to verb to make adjective, not to noun to make it an object.
(compare 먹*을 빵 with 이 빵*을 in the last sentence )

In this sentence '이건 빵이가 내일 아침에 먹어요', '빵' would be the subject having the subject marker '가' and 먹어요 is the verb.
Can a bread eat?

Instead, you can make this bread as the object of the verb '먹다', adding '을' to 빵, as 빵*을 with subject dropped but implied contextually.
==>이 빵*을 내일 아침에 먹어요 Eat this bread tomorrow morning.

If you are familiar with subject and object marker, you will do better than placing things in the wrong slots.
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Re: sentence structure

Postby holdfast » February 3rd, 2009 1:20 pm

John wrote:I, after all this time, am still having some issues with what order words are placed in a sentence. I think I am borderline mentally handicapped.

이건 내일 아침에 먹을 빵이에요.
- This is the bread that I'll eat tomorrow morning.

I was thinking ....이건 빵이가 내일 아침에 먹있어요.

먹을-will eat....so I know I was wrong there.

:!: :x


i am not trying to disregard yhenry's answer, but i think you might have just gotten confused because of the multiple verbs in the sentence. i want to try explaining it too.

when you look at the sentence "this is the bread that i will eat tomorrow morning" what is the main verb? the main verb is "is" so therefore, "is" should go at the end of the sentence (because the main verb always goes at the end in korean). then the clause that describes what it "is" will go in between. i think you just got confused because there are two verbs in this sentence - is and eat. in this case, eat describes the thing that "is".

in the example sentence, you can break the sentence into 3 parts - 이건 ("this" - the topic of the sentence) 내일 아침에 먹을 ("that i will eat tomorrow morning" - adjective clause describing bread) 빵이에요 ("bread is" - the main verb). you can throw a lot of things into an adjective clause, so it's easy to get lost in a long sentence. if you make the sentence a little simpler, you could say 이건 먹을 빵이에요 - this is the bread i will eat. it's still topic-adjective clause-verb. there are many different kinds of adjective clauses and ways to conjugate them - i am sure there is a post around here somewhere (i'll look for it).

i am afraid i am probably only confusing you more as well... i tried, i'm sorry.
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Re: sentence structure

Postby yhenry » February 3rd, 2009 10:09 pm

holdfast wrote:
when you look at the sentence "this is the bread that i will eat tomorrow morning" what is the main verb? the main verb is "is" so therefore, "is" should go at the end of the sentence (because the main verb always goes at the end in korean). then the clause that describes what it "is" will go in between. i think you just got confused because there are two verbs in this sentence - is and eat. in this case, eat describes the thing that "is".


Right on!

When translating, the first thing to do is to look for the main subject and verb, and then place the main subject first and the main verb last, leaving space between them to throw in the rest, that is, subject modifier, verb modifier, or object modifier, if there is any.

In order to do that, you need to know what modifies what, make the modifiers into subordinate clause or phrase, and place them in the proper place.

If adjectival, right before the noun it modifies, if adverbial and simple sentence, close to verb.
If it comes with suffixes working like relative adverb, when, how, or why, in English, you can place that adverb clause in front.

Just like the English grammar.

in the example sentence, you can break the sentence into 3 parts - 이건 ("this" - the topic of the sentence) 내일 아침에 먹을 ("that i will eat tomorrow morning" - adjective clause describing bread) 빵이에요 ("bread is" - the main verb). you can throw a lot of things into an adjective clause, so it's easy to get lost in a long sentence. if you make the sentence a little simpler, you could say 이건 먹을 빵이에요 - this is the bread i will eat. it's still topic-adjective clause-verb. there are many different kinds of adjective clauses and ways to conjugate them


빵 이에요 **if you put imaginary space here to separate the bread 빵, subject, and predicate is 이에요, you can understand a lot better, not for grammatically correct but for correct understanding.

이건 먹을 빵 이에요 this sentence would be completed if you put 내일before 먹을.

이건 내일 먹을 빵 이에요

In above case, 이건 내일 먹을 is a adjective clause modifying the noun 빵.
이건 works like demonstrative pronoun 'this', substituting for 빵.
You can use it as 'determiner' like 'the', as in 이 빵.
Then you can use only one verb 먹다.==>이 빵은 내일 먹어요this bread tomorrow eat.

this bread tomorrow eat?
Just Korean.
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Postby John » February 4th, 2009 2:05 am

Thx guys I'll try to figure out what you are saying, I might need an English teacher to do it though. :lol:
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Postby yhenry » February 4th, 2009 11:51 am

John wrote:Thx guys I'll try to figure out what you are saying, I might need an English teacher to do it though. :lol:


I hope your English teacher won't be too critical about your inquiry. :lol:
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Postby John » February 5th, 2009 12:36 am

Well I wasn't an English major, and I was lost as soon as you said predicate, or adjective, ..... Unfortunately to understand your explanation I would have to go back to high school English and translate.

I do appreciate your time taken to answer my post.
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Postby javiskefka » February 5th, 2009 10:09 am

John wrote:Well I wasn't an English major, and I was lost as soon as you said predicate, or adjective, ..... Unfortunately to understand your explanation I would have to go back to high school English and translate.

I do appreciate your time taken to answer my post.


I understand where you're coming from. Before she posted it, I was about to give an explanation along the lines of Emily's. If you figure out what the essential part of the sentence is, get everything in the right place, then build it up from there, it can be easier then just trying to construct the sentence all at once. Word order in Korean sentences is pretty flexible in most cases, but there are a few things that always happen. The verb is at the end of the sentence, adjectives go before the nouns that they modify, and adverbs can go nearly anywhere in the sentence, but tend towards the beginning.
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Postby John » February 5th, 2009 11:39 pm

I think I just need to try to translate some English sentences into Korean, submit them and get corrected, eventually it might sink in.....yhenry has a translation topic started, I think that's a great idea. :wink:

My IME isn't working all of the sudden so I need to figure out how to fix that first, I can no longer type in Korean. :cry:
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Postby javiskefka » February 6th, 2009 12:11 am

It can be frustrating not knowing the nuances between different Korean words that have similar meanings, so translation can be a dual-edged sword. I'd recommend also reading as much native Korean as possible to get used to how Korean sentences flow.

I posted some suggestions in your tech support thread. Let me know if those help at all.
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Postby Alexis » February 6th, 2009 6:07 am

Wow, you guys are so helpful! I've been wondering for a while now what happens when you have more than one verb in a sentence!! :P

So could someone please explain (again. Sorry!) how you'd say something like:

"I want to go to the shops"?

Thanks for any help!

Sorry for sorta hijacking your post, John!! :P
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Postby John » February 6th, 2009 6:15 am

Don't take this as a concrete answer but I am gonna try just for practice.

전는 소매점도에 가고십버(요). Argh I know I spelled it wrong..... :(
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Postby yhenry » February 6th, 2009 9:53 am

Alexis wrote:Wow, you guys are so helpful! I've been wondering for a while now what happens when you have more than one verb in a sentence!! :P

So could someone please explain (again. Sorry!) how you'd say something like:

"I want to go to the shops"?

Thanks for any help!

Sorry for sorta hijacking your post, John!! :P


Believe or not, English has more than one verb in a sentence.
It is only that all other verbs except the main verb take verbal forms like infinitive, gerund or participle.

Example; I want to go fishing. (3 verbs)

In Korean, however, two verb can come one after the other, one as main and the other as assisting verb adding meaning meaning to the main verb.
All other verbs take some suffixes to function as adjective, adverb, or noun.

나는 (I, subject) 편의점 가는것을(to go to the shop, object) 원해요 (want, verb)
편의점 가는것을; 것 is added to turn a sentence into nominal clause and add object marker 을 to place it in the object slot.

However, In that situation, we tend to use adjective in the end of a sentence, making it kind of indirect expression, much like 'feel like to'.

나는 (subject) 편의점에 (adverb) 가고 (verb) 싶어요 (adjective)
I feel like going to the shop.
In this case, the adjective-ending is called 'assisting adjective', expressing the desire of the action the main verb refer to.

싶다 is not a verb because it cannot take object.
(X) 나는 편의점에 가는것*을 싶어요 (X)

But 원하다 is verb because it can take object.
나는 사과*를 원해요
(X) 나는 사과*를 싶어요 (X)

If you want to use 싶어요, then use it after a verb like '먹고';
나는 사과*를 먹고 싶어요

To be a natural Korean speaker, you must be unnatural to English thoughts.
Word order is one of strange things.
Combining verb with verb or adjective maybe another strange habit to your mind.
But, at least you have complex nouns mixed with verb like 'dancing girl', injured boy, or use noun as verb, or vise versa, which is strange to our Korean mind.
Do not box yourself in a English only thoughts.

Interesting?

Korean is so different from English.
So, you need to think as we Koreans do, like when in Rome...

PS, thank you for asking, because you asked, I had to study my own language I habitually speak without much thinking of why.
I could have simply said, 'that is the way it is', but that kind of answer doesn't satisfy me at all. That is why I went an extra mile to get the proper explanation, however complicated.
I found that teaching is really a way of learning, a good way, a by-product.
Last edited by yhenry on February 6th, 2009 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby John » February 6th, 2009 10:04 am

which leads me to ........전는 OR 나는 when is one or the other correctly used :?:
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Postby javiskefka » February 6th, 2009 3:07 pm

John wrote:which leads me to ........전는 OR 나는 when is one or the other correctly used :?:


저는 is used for humbling yourself when you're talking to strangers or someone higher in the social hierarchy than you.
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