Comments on: Picture Video Vocab #6 - The Bus http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/ Learn Korean with Free Podcasts Thu, 17 May 2012 14:55:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.11 by: isomu http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-22943 Thu, 05 Feb 2009 02:55:42 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-22943 Hang on! The bus or tram sway "handle" (in English) is a "strap;" the rider, a "straphanger." http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/strap-hang Hang on! The bus or tram sway “handle” (in English) is a “strap;” the rider, a “straphanger.” http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/strap-hang

]]> by: Ed http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-10894 Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:04:50 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-10894 ^bump. There's a famous paper from 1975 that addressed this very problem, and may answer many of the questions posed in this thread. It's a bit technical, but it has a really nice discussion about this issue. It's called "Denasalization in Korean" and it's in: Ferguson, C.A., L.M. Hyman, and J.J. Ohala, eds. 1975. <i>Nasalfest: Papers from a symposium on Nasals and Nasalization.</i> Stanford University, Special Publications, Project on Language Universals. ^bump.

There’s a famous paper from 1975 that addressed this very problem, and may answer many of the questions posed in this thread. It’s a bit technical, but it has a really nice discussion about this issue.

It’s called “Denasalization in Korean” and it’s in:

Ferguson, C.A., L.M. Hyman, and J.J. Ohala, eds. 1975. Nasalfest: Papers from a symposium on Nasals and Nasalization. Stanford University, Special Publications, Project on Language Universals.

]]> by: Daniel K http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8477 Tue, 03 Jun 2008 01:26:51 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8477 Wow, really cool video, Austin! I was tripped up by the "ga"/"ba" change. But when I watched and listened to the video, I heard "ga," not "da." I guess I'm in that 2%! Wow, really cool video, Austin! I was tripped up by the “ga”/”ba” change. But when I watched and listened to the video, I heard “ga,” not “da.” I guess I’m in that 2%!

]]> by: Chris http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8405 Fri, 30 May 2008 07:35:39 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8405 I originally heard "v" for ㅁ, but I knew it couldn't be correct. The ng-r combination is not uncommon in my native language, so I found it easy to say, but r->n makes a lot of sense as they're both nasals. ^^ The buses here are about the same, I guess, but not fast at all. Drivers aren't really that aggressive here (well, we've only got single files in the cities). But do Koreans consider the fare pricey? I'm just curious, because if I change it to my currancy, it's ridiculously little. I originally heard “v” for ㅁ, but I knew it couldn’t be correct.

The ng-r combination is not uncommon in my native language, so I found it easy to say, but r->n makes a lot of sense as they’re both nasals. ^^

The buses here are about the same, I guess, but not fast at all. Drivers aren’t really that aggressive here (well, we’ve only got single files in the cities). But do Koreans consider the fare pricey? I’m just curious, because if I change it to my currancy, it’s ridiculously little.

]]> by: Jeff (Javis) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8400 Fri, 30 May 2008 05:15:55 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8400 I think I would call those free-hanging, individual "handles" on the bus hand-holds. The buses in DC only have handrails along the ceiling, though. Also the "손잡이" on escalators and stairs are called handrails. That's interesting about ㄴ/ㄷ and ㅂ/ㅁ. I can't recall having troubling hearing the difference, but I have been told on occasion that my pronunciation of ㄴ is too close to ㄷ. I bet it has to do with Hyunwoo's point about the point of articulation in my mouth as I pronounce the consonant not being correct. I think I would call those free-hanging, individual “handles” on the bus hand-holds. The buses in DC only have handrails along the ceiling, though. Also the “손잡이” on escalators and stairs are called handrails.

That’s interesting about ㄴ/ㄷ and ㅂ/ㅁ. I can’t recall having troubling hearing the difference, but I have been told on occasion that my pronunciation of ㄴ is too close to ㄷ. I bet it has to do with Hyunwoo’s point about the point of articulation in my mouth as I pronounce the consonant not being correct.

]]> by: james http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8396 Fri, 30 May 2008 03:37:13 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8396 오민, Interesting but it didn't fool me for one second and I only read the description of the effect afterwards. Maybe because 'ba' is so common in my mother tongue. Even my brothers weren't 'tricked'. Maxiewawa, you nailed it with the nasal block thing. Also, Korean speakers don't seem to be aware of the changes in consonant sounds with regards to position, at least not all the time. And that's okay. I commented as 'himasf' to that video response when it was posted 'coz I didn't agree with some of his wording. Sam, great find! Thanks for sharing that. Thanks everyone for the input. I didn't mean to hijack this thread :oops: but I'm so happy to put this to rest :mrgreen: 오민, Interesting but it didn’t fool me for one second and I only read the description of the effect afterwards. Maybe because ‘ba’ is so common in my mother tongue. Even my brothers weren’t ‘tricked’.

Maxiewawa, you nailed it with the nasal block thing. Also, Korean speakers don’t seem to be aware of the changes in consonant sounds with regards to position, at least not all the time. And that’s okay. I commented as ‘himasf’ to that video response when it was posted ‘coz I didn’t agree with some of his wording.

Sam, great find! Thanks for sharing that.

Thanks everyone for the input. I didn’t mean to hijack this thread :oops: but I’m so happy to put this to rest :mrgreen:

]]> by: Austin (오민) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8394 Fri, 30 May 2008 03:13:39 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8394 I found it! It's called the McGurk effect: http://www.media.uio.no/personer/arntm/McGurk_english.html The video is of a man saying "ga" But the audio track was of him saying "ba" (it came from a different video) Put the two together, and something really strange happened. If you watch the video with no sound, you can perceive a "ga" If you close your eyes and only listen to the audio, you'll hear "ba" But if you watch the video with the sound on, your brain perceives it as "da!" Fun, huh?! I wonder if something similar is going on in a non-native speakers perception of these sounds in Korean. I found it! It’s called the McGurk effect:

http://www.media.uio.no/personer/arntm/McGurk_english.html

The video is of a man saying “ga”
But the audio track was of him saying “ba” (it came from a different video)

Put the two together, and something really strange happened. If you watch the video with no sound, you can perceive a “ga” If you close your eyes and only listen to the audio, you’ll hear “ba” But if you watch the video with the sound on, your brain perceives it as “da!”

Fun, huh?! I wonder if something similar is going on in a non-native speakers perception of these sounds in Korean.

]]> by: Austin (오민) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8392 Fri, 30 May 2008 00:46:26 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8392 Way back in college I took a really interesting psycho-linguistics class. One day the prof showed us a video of someone repeating a simple sounds.. maybe /b/ and /p/...I forget exactly.. I'll try to track down the video and post it here, but anyway the audio had mistakenly been switched around, so the video shows the man speaking one sound, but the audio is of a different sound. I think the result was a third sound!! All this to show that sometimes the visual clues of the lips forming the sound are just as important as the audio. I'll dig around for that video later today. Way back in college I took a really interesting psycho-linguistics class. One day the prof showed us a video of someone repeating a simple sounds.. maybe /b/ and /p/…I forget exactly.. I’ll try to track down the video and post it here, but anyway the audio had mistakenly been switched around, so the video shows the man speaking one sound, but the audio is of a different sound. I think the result was a third sound!!

All this to show that sometimes the visual clues of the lips forming the sound are just as important as the audio. I’ll dig around for that video later today.

]]> by: Sam http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8387 Thu, 29 May 2008 22:00:49 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8387 I found an interesting article about this that offers at least one explanation for the change from ㅁ to ㅂ (and presumably from ㄴ to ㄷ). It suggests it happens especially with the "high vowels" (where the soft palate is elevated) ie. ㅜ, ㅣ, and, although possibly to a lesser extent, ㅔ. The article suggests that this occurs because the nasal "voicing" of consonants such as ㄴ and ㅁ is naturally done with the soft palate in a lower position (ie. easier with vowels such as ㅏ and ㅓ), thus producing more of a stop when attempted with the 'high vowels'. But I've gotten used to this sound ("did he say '데?'"), think of it as natural, and even try to imitate it :smile: http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/phonlab/users/ohala/papers/SEOUL3-emergent_stops.pdf I found an interesting article about this that offers at least one explanation for the change from ㅁ to ㅂ (and presumably from ㄴ to ㄷ). It suggests it happens especially with the “high vowels” (where the soft palate is elevated) ie. ㅜ, ㅣ, and, although possibly to a lesser extent, ㅔ. The article suggests that this occurs because the nasal “voicing” of consonants such as ㄴ and ㅁ is naturally done with the soft palate in a lower position (ie. easier with vowels such as ㅏ and ㅓ), thus producing more of a stop when attempted with the ‘high vowels’. But I’ve gotten used to this sound (”did he say ‘데?’”), think of it as natural, and even try to imitate it :smile:

http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/phonlab/users/ohala/papers/SEOUL3-emergent_stops.pdf

]]> by: Shan http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8384 Thu, 29 May 2008 17:08:29 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8384 Yes, "미안해" is another one of those that very often sounds like "비안해" to me. Another one is the simple "네". Sometimes I hear "데". We should make a list of these words! :grin: Yes, “미안해” is another one of those that very often sounds like “비안해” to me.

Another one is the simple “네”. Sometimes I hear “데”.

We should make a list of these words! :grin:

]]> by: Hyunwoo Sun(선현우) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8381 Thu, 29 May 2008 16:45:39 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8381 And it's a very nice music video by the way! Is there any specific vowel that seems to make this happen more often, among ㅏ, ㅑ,ㅓ,ㅕ,ㅗ,ㅛ,ㅜ,ㅠ,ㅡ,ㅣ ? And it’s a very nice music video by the way!

Is there any specific vowel that seems to make this happen more often, among ㅏ, ㅑ,ㅓ,ㅕ,ㅗ,ㅛ,ㅜ,ㅠ,ㅡ,ㅣ ?

]]> by: Hyunwoo Sun(선현우) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8380 Thu, 29 May 2008 16:41:05 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8380 :shock: Haha. :D Jacqueline, yeah it DOES sound like 비안해 :D Had it not been for the fact that there's no word like 비안해 in Korean, I would have had to wonder which one it is, too :D :shock:

Haha. :D Jacqueline, yeah it DOES sound like 비안해 :D Had it not been for the fact that there’s no word like 비안해 in Korean, I would have had to wonder which one it is, too :D

]]> by: Jacqueline (쟈클린) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8379 Thu, 29 May 2008 16:38:09 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8379 Here's an example of what we say ^^, a the beginning of this mv there's a phone conversation and I think the girl says like 3 times 미안 (Sorry) but she pronounces it 비안 ^^. Here it is : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0ClsGDdkQ Here’s an example of what we say ^^, a the beginning of this mv there’s a phone conversation and I think the girl says like 3 times 미안 (Sorry) but she pronounces it 비안 ^^.

Here it is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0ClsGDdkQ

]]> by: Hyunwoo Sun(선현우) http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8378 Thu, 29 May 2008 15:57:46 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8378 Jacqueline, Shan, yeah.. it's still very tricky :) I guess one solution to this problem is to know more and more vocab, since there's no word that goes '두구' or '붜' in Korean (maybe that's why I can tell the difference - a word and a random sound, at least for the examples given above). Context will help clarify the vagueness, I hope ^^ Jacqueline, Shan, yeah.. it’s still very tricky :) I guess one solution to this problem is to know more and more vocab, since there’s no word that goes ‘두구’ or ‘붜’ in Korean (maybe that’s why I can tell the difference - a word and a random sound, at least for the examples given above). Context will help clarify the vagueness, I hope ^^

]]> by: Shan http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8377 Thu, 29 May 2008 15:27:35 +0000 http://www.koreanclass101.com/2008/05/28/picture-video-vocab-6-the-bus/#comment-8377 Max - I saw that video, and the explanation he gave was helpful in explaining the sound of the consonant when it is in the final position of a syllable block. But when the consonant is in the initial position, as James brought up, there is no reason for the pronunciation to "change" from "muo" to "buo", or from "nu gu" to "du gu". It's just one of those things about the Korean language that is elusive to non-native speakers...:???: Max - I saw that video, and the explanation he gave was helpful in explaining the sound of the consonant when it is in the final position of a syllable block.

But when the consonant is in the initial position, as James brought up, there is no reason for the pronunciation to “change” from “muo” to “buo”, or from “nu gu” to “du gu”. It’s just one of those things about the Korean language that is elusive to non-native speakers…:???:

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